Picky Eaters 101 (+ Helping Your Little Kids Eat Healthy!): An interview with Jennifer of Kids Eat in Color

This is episode 175 and today I'm interviewing Jennifer from Kids Eat in Color. Oh my goodness. This interview is amazing. I hope you guys enjoy it. You can check out the full written transcript and links to all the things I mentioned in today's show at godiaperfree.com/175, and be sure to hop over there at the end of this interview which is quite long, I'm warning you, but it's so informative. If you have any comments or questions, please go over to those show notes after you've listened and let us know. I look forward to seeing you there and enjoy the interview.

Hey there, welcome to the Go Diaper Free podcast. I'm Andrea Olson, your host, author, and mom of five babies, all EC from birth, all out of diapers by walking.

Andrea:
All right, you guys, I have a wonderful guest on the podcast today. And I know I usually don't do very many interviews, but lately you guys have been blowing us up with all the people that you follow on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube, and you want us to help these people you've been finding for us, tell you more about what they do. So, this is a crossover episode. We're not going to be talking about EC or potty training really at all. We're going to be talking about eating and feeding kids and all the things with that.

And my guest today is a mom, a wife, and a registered dietician. Her name is Jennifer and she runs Kids Eat in Color. The biggest thing I can see that Jennifer offers that is a parallel to what we do at Go Diaper Free is this kind of non-judgment, "Here's the whole spectrum, wherever you're at, we're going to help you with this specific topic. And this topic is key to your child's development." At Go Diaper Free same here, right? So, we're definitely on the same page. And now Jennifer, welcome to the show, first of all.

Jennifer:
Thank you so much, Andrea. It's good to be here.

Andrea:
And I would love for you to tell my audience a little bit about how you got into, how you transitioned from being a dietician, which I imagine would be more general, to specifically focusing on helping parents feed their kids.

Jennifer:
Sure. So it really started when I had trouble feeding my son. And I thought, "I am a dietician. This is so hard for me. How come this is much harder than I thought I would be?" My first son stopped gaining weight as they expected, and so I just learned really, really quickly as a parent, that feeding kids can be really tricky. And as we continued to work through his eating issues, I really had to specialize my knowledge. And when he was three and went to preschool, I started an Instagram account because I thought, "You know what? I can't be the only parent struggling with feeding my child." And it turns out I wasn't.

Andrea:
You not only weren't, but you have one and a half million followers. So clearly, you're onto something here

Jennifer:
Right? Yeah. Parents are struggling. Parents everywhere. It's tricky. It's tricky feeding kids.

Andrea:
It really is. And especially something so scary as that. Was that your first child?

Jennifer:
Mm-hmm

Andrea:
Yeah. So, first time mom and your child stops gaining weight. What do you do? I personally would freak out. I would have a really hard time. So, how did you figure out, and how did you create what you offer parents now? What was sort of your organic path into all that?

Jennifer:
Yeah, so first I just specialized my own knowledge. What are the best practices of feeding kids? The pediatrician, just right off the bat, it went from "Hey, your child is not gaining weight as expected," to, "You need to use PediaSure." And I just took a step back because as a dietician, I had done my training in pediatric eating setting. And there were a lot of situations where we saw kids who couldn't eat food, because they had gotten stuck on PediaSure. And I thought, while that is an important medical food, is that really the first line? Is that really... Do we just go from, "Hey, we have an eating issue here," to, "We need to go to PediaSure." And that gave me pause and also got me into child feeding. What is the research around child feeding? What are the best practices? What can we be aiming for that will help our kids, whether they're not eating enough, whether they're eating more than we're expecting, whether they're picky. And it just opened up an entire world understanding feeding kids, which is much more complicated than we would like to believe.

Andrea:
Oh, absolutely. So for my audience's information, what is PediaSure? Because we have a lot of moms of infants, brand new. Is that a product that's just for toddlers? Is it for all ages?

Jennifer:
Oh, great question. And I can't believe I didn't answer that.

Andrea:
That's okay.

Jennifer:
So PediaSure... And it could be Boost, it could be PediaSure. There's all sorts of names for these. Orgain. It's a drink. It's a fortified drink that has extra calories and then extra nutrients. So, there's all sorts of different varieties of these things, but basically it's a drink. It's usually really sweet so the kids will drink it. And then, for kids who have failure to thrive or other eating issues, it may be a useful tool in the feeding toolbox.

Andrea:
I see. And I think my grandpa was drinking the Boost before he passed away. They were giving it to him. So, this is kind of literally all ages, except but not babies, with babies it would be formula, and then they move into something like PediaSure?

Jennifer:
Yep. So, when they're babies, generally they'll be given like high calorie formula or something like that.

Andrea:
Okay. I got it. And yeah. So you started thinking, "Okay, this doesn't make sense for me, especially as a dietician." You're healing people with food. I mean, that's your nature. So, how did you adapt that to your child and how old was he or she when this happened?

Jennifer:
Our first conversations were around nine months and then by... Within months they were recommending PediaSure. And I just thought, "Okay, it seems like we've escalated this very quickly." We've gone from breastfeeding and then introducing solids and that sort of thing. And now we're at PediaSure. But I did begin to explore, how do we add high calorie foods? How do we make every single bite count? High calorie foods at every single meal and snack, beginning with complimentary feeding, which is while they're still drinking breast milk or formula. So, making sure those things have added fats, the proteins, all those things have the calories, the energy, and then going easy on some of the lighter foods. Cheerios is the only one that comes to mind, but of course I fed my-

Andrea:
Things that don't do much of anything.

Jennifer:
But I did plenty of Cheerios, too.

Andrea:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so it makes sense. So, you're really just beefing up the diet massively, because your child was... Were you told that he was failing to thrive?

Jennifer:
He didn't quite get to that diagnosis, but it was... We're almost there. We're almost on the edge of going to the pediatric gastroenterologist. If he doesn't gain weight in this amount of, then you're going to get a referral to this one. And so it was constantly coming in for weight checks, doing this, doing that. And I mean, that's stressful. Anytime you have a pediatrician asking for additional information about your child, it just causes a little bit more anxiety and stress about something. And then you're thinking, "Oh my gosh, did I fail? What's wrong with me? Is it just my kid? Are other parents experiencing this?"

Andrea:
Totally.

Jennifer:
There's so many things that I think we think as parents, when our kids' path goes a little off mainstream.

Andrea:
Right. The guilt and the shame and the, "What did I do wrong?"

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
And this baby's only nine months old. Were you breastfeeding at the time?

Jennifer:
I was. Yep. But it was really when he... I mean, he was a chunk as a breastfeeding only baby. I mean, very, very chunky. He was 20 pounds at six months old. And then all of a sudden we started introducing the complementary foods and then it was just like zoom. And he also learned how to walk. So by nine months he was walking and then he's often running, burning calories and never sitting still to eat them.

Andrea:
Oh my gosh. Well, it sounds like you really solved it. And I would love to know, with Kids Eat in Color, what is your main... What do you find that most parents struggle with the most, that you're most able to help them with?

Jennifer:
Sure. So I think as parents, we often worry that our children are getting the right amount of food. And there's a couple worries that come with that. We're worried that we're doing the best for our child. We are worried about our child being healthy. We have a lot of these worries and we kind of have to fall back on whatever life experiences we've had or how we were raised to try to solve these problems that come up. And often, the techniques that we're using aren't giving us the results that we want, but we don't have any other techniques to fall back on. So we just keep doing them, right? And then it just kind of builds this angst and frustration around us. So, if we're obsessed with doing the best, we may be doing a lot of research about feeding and kind of trying to figure out what is the best? What is the top recommendation? What is the best food I give you by child? We may be really obsessed with this concept of the best.

And in the meantime, we're degrading our own mental health. And also we get frustrated anytime our life experience and our child isn't fitting in with this concept that we have, that something is the best, whether it's how I weaned my baby, or what foods I'm feeding my baby, or what happens if I have a one year old who became excessively picky? What do I do about that? Because they're not eating the best diet. They're not eating a variety of foods. So, we have a lot of angst and our mental health goes down. Or let's say we do have a picky eater. And in our home, when we were growing up you just, you had to eat it, otherwise you had to sit there all night. There's all these pressure tactics that parents put on kids and are thinking, "Well, this is my tool. This is my toolbox that I have, to just kind of force the child to eat." And it's not working. The child is not eating.

Andrea:
I know everybody listening is probably like, "Okay, then what do I do?" Because I personally, I have five children. They're ages 3 to 11. They will all eat anything, except for the four and a half year old, who has decided that he does not like chili. He does not like meatloaf. He does not like spaghetti. Basically anything I say that's for dinner, except for my Filipino dish, chicken adobo, that we passed down in our family for generations. That's the only thing he will eat, or says he likes. And then he's like, "Will you just make me a hot dog? Make me something else." And he'll make it himself even. And I'm just like, "What do I do?" So I know everybody listening is probably like, "Okay, I definitely have one kid who's picky. I feel like all they're eating is processed snack foods or bread or mac and cheese. And it's organic, but I literally can't get them to eat anything else." What would be your advice for those listening, and for me as well, for that situation. What do you do?

Jennifer:
Right. So, in that case, and I love that you have four children who... you're probably like, "But I've been doing the same thing for 11 years."

Andrea:
I did this for all of them. Yeah.

Jennifer:
"How did I end up with a picky eater?" And what I love about that is it points out that it's not you that is somehow causing your child to be picky. And there's a huge narrative out there that is like, if your child is picky, that reflects poorly on you as a parent.

Andrea:
And you're a pushover or you're too lenient, or you're just... yeah.

Jennifer:
Yeah, any number of things, right? And you're thinking, "Nope, I'm a pro mom. I've got five kids. Four of them are not picky and the one in the middle, I don't know, they just are."

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
And that speaks to how complicated picky eating can be. And because of that, because you have four kids who are not picky, and one who is, that makes me think that the four year old has something else, has another barrier that they're having to kind of overcome to address eating to them. And one thing to keep in mind is, you know what? That hot dog? That hot dog is going to taste the exact same every single time. It is always going to be that hot dog. The same Mac and cheese out of the same box, the same brand, it's always going to be the same. That meatloaf? Who knows what might be in that meatloaf. It might be the same as you made it last week, or it might have a different size cut to the onions, or it may have a little more sauce or a little less sauce, or a little more of this, a little bit of that. That's a wild card. Same with the spaghetti. What if it's a sauce that's got a little bit more of this or a little less cheese or this different shape pasta?

We forget that for some kids, this break in the norm can be distressing to them and they don't know how to expect it. Now, in general, if you had said, "Oh, I have five kids and they're all picky." I would come back to the basics. Like, what are the conditions that we have at home that enable picky eating? Because a lot of kids, I mean, you know, they hit one, they start having opinions. By two, they have a lot of opinions. And some of those are going to be about food.

Andrea:
I also have a three year old. I'm laughing because, oh man, she's whining about everything just this week. And I'm like... I explained to everybody in the car today, this is called being illogical, which will happen until she's seven. And we have three who are under seven. And my six year old's like, "I'm very logical." And I'm like, "No, you're not." Yeah. So, obviously I'm not enabling all of them to be picky, but they all have their different... The three year old really wants... her sense of order is very strong right now, which is totally normal developmentally. And the four and a half year old, yes, I can see what you're saying. He needs predictability. He needs a sure thing. And he's also having stress about saying goodbye and all that. Everybody listening, you know when your kid is going through something. And you can't probably figure it out until you're looking backwards at it in the future and going, "Oh, it must have been this."

Like, "I went through a divorce this year. Could it be that he's picky eating because I went through a divorce?" I'm thinking yes. And we have the same thing with elimination communication, with our infant potty training.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
And something happens and a blip happens there, I always tell people to zoom out and to see what else is going on in the child's life. Is there illness, travel, a death in the family, a divorce, a move, something like that?

Jennifer:
Yep.

Andrea:
And if there is, it's important to make everything feel stable for the child, and then those EC problems go away.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
It's almost like diagnosing, what is the root cause?

Jennifer:
Yeah. And we do. We do see the same thing with picky eating, for sure. But when you're generally kind of following the practices of, "I'm not enabling picky eating my home," meaning "I'm the parent. I'm in charge of what food I have in my house. I'm in charge of the menu. I go to the grocery store or order groceries or whatever I do these days. And I'm in charge of that. I'm also in charge of when food is available. It's just not available all the time." And I'm one of five. And as a mom of five, I'm sure you know. Like, "No, you can't just eat whenever you want. That would be complete and utter chaos.

Andrea:
And I'm not a short order cook. I do not make a different dish for each person. This is what we're having. If you don't like it, I'm sorry.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
I try to make things that I know that they like, and I try to vary it.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
It's still like you can't please everybody. So, you're basically saying that if you're enabling them, that means you're going to the grocery store, you're making sure to get only the things that your kids absolutely love and you don't diversify and you don't even try.

Jennifer:
Yeah. In fact, maybe you just ask your child, "What do you want? What do you want?" But you know what? That's just not their job. I mean, it's just not their job to be in charge of what they... They don't know. I mean, maybe they just know pasta.

Andrea:
It's pretty.. to ask your child to be the boss of anything, in any way, at that age.

Jennifer:
Right. They're not. Yeah. I mean, they're just... that's not their job. Now, on the other hand, it is their job to decide whether they're going to eat it and how much they're going to eat. And that's the balance where we're saying, "Hey, I'm in charge. No, you can't eat food in the bathroom." Or whatever your rule is. "You can't eat in your bed." Whatever. Again, whatever your rules are, you're saying, "Here's the structure. I'm creating the structure in the home. But also you're in charge of your body. You decide whether you're hungry at this mealtime that I've provided, and you decide if you are full, and whether you're going to eat the food that's available."

Andrea:
So the parents set the structure, these are the guidelines. This is when and where we eat. And this is what we're having. And the child decides, because it's their body, whether and how much.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
And you guys listening, this is the same as EC. We offer. We call it a pottytunity, and it's opportunity to go to the bathroom when they wake up, or when we see that they need to poop. And it's up to the child whether or not they will go at that time. And literally, it's their body.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
So, there's so many parallels. I'm so surprised.

Jennifer:
Yeah. Well, I mean, so much of it comes down to the core parenting strategies that people have all over the world. And I used to think, "Am I sort of pushing some sort of ideal out there that is very culturally relevant to mine and not necessarily other places?" And of course there's different parenting strategies all over the world and all different cultures, over time. But it's amazing how many parents from so many different cultures are like, "Oh my gosh, this solves so many problems for me," because it just kind of makes a little bit of its differentiation of, "Hey, you really are the only one who knows if you're hungry or full." I can't know that. It's like, I can't know if my child has a full bladder. How would I know that?

Andrea:
I know. And you can't know that child you child has to poop unless you see it happening, they're starting to push, you literally don't know until that moment happens.

Jennifer:
Right. Now, we can observe. And we can say, "Oh, it looks like you're hungry or you're acting fussy." There's so many things.

Andrea:
There's signs and signals as well. Yeah.

Jennifer:
Exactly. But really, I'm kind of trying to get you into routine here. Again, I'm saying, "Hey, this is your opportunity to eat. You don't have to take it. We're going to have another meal or snack in two or three hours," depending on the age of the kid. So, we're providing those opportunities over and over for kids to learn, to be in touch with their body, and then as adults, we're providing the structure. And that is what generally takes care of what I like to call mild picky eating, basic picky eating. It's like, your child is going to say sometimes, "No, I'm not going to eat that. That's disgusting. I'm revolted."

Andrea:
What would you do if they say no? You just say, "Oh, you can wait until the next time we eat"?

Jennifer:
"Okay, that's fine. You can eat it when you're ready." I mean, that's really, as the parent, that's our job, to just give them the space. They don't have to take it. Now, there are going to be times-

Andrea:
And what if they have a massive tantrum? What if they're like, "Well, you have to make me something. I'm going to starve."

Jennifer:
And the answer is, "No, you're not going to starve because I give you six eating opportunities a day."

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
So, "I'm not going to reason with you, but also, that's a ridiculous thing." And yes, are they going to have a tantrum? For sure. You cannot make it through parenting a two year old or a one year old, or an eight year old, without tantrums. I mean, it's just part of the thing.

Andrea:
It's their makeup. Right. It's the way they ask for what they need.

Jennifer:
Oh yeah.

Andrea:
Dysfunctional.

Jennifer:
And if we just kind of go through parenting and say, "Okay, my goal is to never have a tantrum, or to always prevent the tantrums." I mean-

Andrea:
that'd be terrible.

Jennifer:
Yeah, and it still won't work.

Andrea:
It won't work. It probably would cause more. Backfire. Yeah.

Jennifer:
Right. I mean, the reality is, the kids need structure, and they need pushback against the structure. They're going to have tantrums. Now, I will say this. I have actually not had a lot of tantrums with my kids. And we've had plenty of tantrums, but I've not had a lot over, "You didn't get up and make me what I want." Because I've never. Like. Too bad for you. I mean, I will not get up and make you a special meal. Just that's nothing that I've ever offered. That's nothing I've ever done. Doesn't mean that's... I mean, at some point it occurred to them that maybe that could happen. And so they asked for it, but I didn't. I mean, that's just not part of what we do in my house.

Andrea:
Right. So, I made a giant oopsie, everybody, you guys probably think I'm a perfect mom, because I had all my kids out of diapers by walking and, "Oh, Andrea's so perfect." Oh my, I have made a giant mistake with Branson, my four year old, because I have definitely buckled and said, "Instead of listening to you scream bloody murder for an hour," which is how he throws a tantrum, "I'm just going to make you this stinking hot dog." And I've done it. And since I've done it once, he now knows that that's an option and I have made a massive mistake.

Jennifer:
One time.

Andrea:
And I guess the question then is, and I would say the same thing for EC, for infant body training, you go back to the basics and say, "No, this is what we're having. These are the times. This is what's on offer. If you don't want it, you just have to wait." And then I could put in, I have these little things called loops. They bring the decibels down about 10 decibels.

Jennifer:
Yes.

Andrea:
They're like little earplug things. And they're awesome for moms. You guys, they're amazing. I'll throw a link in the show notes. You have to have them if your kids whine and it bothers you. I can't. I just, I'll put those and just stick to my guns and eventually he'll stop being picky. I'm assuming.

Jennifer:
Now, I would... I just want to caveat this, because there's so many different issues here. So, I would guess that in your home, based on the fact that the other four are not really picky, what we're seeing here is a more complicated picky eating case for him. Because if it wasn't, he would probably just be rolling with it more or less. So with him, and I never advocate for what I call starve it out, which is where parents say, "Okay, you eat this. It's only this and never..." I always like to do this. Always provide one food for that child who's picky that they know they're comfortable with. And you know what? That might be a hot dog. But the key is, you decide ahead of time that you're going to put a hot dog on the table and it's just on the table. It's part of it. And if you're just making that food available to him, it can cause issues. And then he thinks, "Oh, this is special food for me." Right?

Andrea:
Yep.

Jennifer:
Instead, if you can incorporate a food that he's comfortable with that everybody has, then it's not a special meal for him. It's just part of the family meal.

Andrea:
Oh, so I can make chili again. Oh, thank God I can make chili again, because I miss having chili on the menu. If I put out chili and a couple of hot dogs and just let them choose, or they can make of each.

Jennifer:
Yeah. Right.

Andrea:
This is game changing. You guys listening, if this is also game changing for you, please definitely go over the show notes and comment and just chime in, because this is like... It's hard.

Jennifer:
It is hard.

Andrea:
It makes everything harder. It's eating, just eat what I give you. It could be so simple. Just go potty when I offer it. He just doesn't. I know you need to go. I know you're hungry. I know you need a nap. I'm terrible with sleep training. So it's like, my challenge is that.

Jennifer:
Oh goodness, yeah.

Andrea:
And my challenge is this one child. And it's just like, there are solutions. We just have to find people who can help us. And I think that you're one of those people who can help us. I have a couple notes here about bribing for eating healthy foods.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
I kind of just want to hit a couple of these highlights, if you don't mind making a little comment on each of these, because it's so... just these little one-liners that Jen put together for me and was just like, "Oh man, these are huge." And then I want to know where people can find you and where we can learn more. And anything else you want to share with us. But okay, let's talk about this. We talked about one of these already. But no bribing with dessert, or treats, or privileges for eating healthy foods. So, "Hey, if you eat this broccoli, I will give you dessert." That's a no-no.

Jennifer:
Which makes sense. We would think that that's cool, right?

Andrea:
Yeah.

Jennifer:
What we don't realize is every time we do that, we say, "Dessert is good, broccoli is bad. In fact, broccoli is so bad that I have to give you dessert," which then puts dessert up on this pedestal. And what we see over time is a child has a greater desire for dessert and a lesser desire for broccoli. So, although to an adult mind, it makes sense, we're working against ourselves in the long run.

Andrea:
Yeah. We're setting them up. That's not communicating the right thing.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
I always go back to it with EC. I always go back to let's be very matter of fact and what would a woman in an intact culture, like living as a tribe, how would she manage her baby? It's very matter of fact. There's very little talking. It's very physical, and very much just the whole community, this is just what we do. And it's almost, I would imagine it's easier, because we don't have this disconnect with our knowledge that's been passed down, like what do I even do with this child? And then there's no chance for us to... When I was in Africa 21 years ago, I didn't see any manipulation, bribery, stuff like that going on. I just saw this super natural parenting spectrum that it just seemed like it was just unbroken. It was just like, this is what everybody does and everybody was super happy, including the kids. I did not witness a single tantrum or a single diaper.

Jennifer:
Wow.

Andrea:
Yeah.

Jennifer:
No tantrums. Okay, wow.

Andrea:
No tantrums. And these babies were sitting and walking and running and dancing way earlier than any of our kids. I mean, I was just... And babies on the back, heads wobbling all over the place when the mom is dancing. Like, a brand new baby. And when my babies came, I handled them. I wasn't afraid that they were a porcelain doll. I learned a little from it, but you think about it, yeah. They eat the same food every day there. It's just what they do. I got bored of it, because I'm spoiled.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
I'm a spoiled American. So yeah, it's so interesting how we've definitely... We think doing the right thing, but we're actually sabotaging the process by doing something that seems so innocent.

Jennifer:
Right. And so many of these things were passed down to us.

Andrea:
Bad habits.

Jennifer:
Yeah. I mean, it's just kind of like, "Oh, hey, we..." and I'm not exactly sure where it came from, but I'm sure we could trace a lot of it back to the food industry, right?

Andrea:
Velveeta, Kraft, marketing. And the same thing with the diaper companies. The Pampers. And they all had an agenda.

Jennifer:
Yep, all the marketing.

Andrea:
They all had an agenda to sell more products and to get brand loyalty. So, it literally changed the way we parent, right?

Jennifer:
Right. It's amazing. But I think where we can just step back and say, "We don't have to add dramas to this," right? "You can eat the broccoli or you cannot eat the broccoli," and I can decide, "Am I going to serve dessert or not serve dessert?" I don't have to serve it. I also can serve it.

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
I'm the grownup. I can make that decision.

Andrea:
But they're not related.

Jennifer:
But I don't have to relate them.

Andrea:
Right. Okay. No drama. Don't add drama to the food, you guys, that's basically the point. Which brings me the vegetables. I always say, "You just have to have one bite of each thing on your plate," when I feel the struggle brewing and then everybody kind of colludes and they're like, "No, we're all going to strike right now. We're not going to... We're all going to be together on this." I know they like broccoli. I make them vegetables that they generally will eat. But I usually... At the end of it, when I just say, "All right, whatever. Just each of you, you take four bites of yours, because I don't see enough food gone. You take two more bites of yours and you're done." And that satisfies them. I wonder if that's what... A lot of us struggle with vegetables, getting our kids eat vegetables, especially the younger ones. Well, how do you handle that?

Jennifer:
Yeah. So, here's what I recommend in general. This is, we take a long view. Obviously, there's different perspectives on this. But when we think about the long term, rather than the immediate short term, and when we think about the fact that we're the parents and we can decide what is going to be served, we have a couple tools here. We can choose to help the child get in touch with their body and know, "What do I want to eat? What do I not want to eat? Am I full? Am I hungry?" This takes a little bit of having a sense of what's going on in your body. But when we can maintain that, long term, we give them the gift of being able to tell later, "Am I hungry? Or am I full? Can I stop or can I not stop?"

So when we're talking about allowing a child whether to eat or not, I generally recommend we let kids decide, "Am I going to take one bite? Am I going to take five bites? Am I going to take no bites?" Right? And we're because anytime we say, "You have to," we're putting external pressure on that decision to eat the veggies. "You have to try it. You have to eat five bites. You have to eat the whole thing." Whatever the rule is. They're hearing, "Ugh, I have to. She's making me." And what we see in some of the research and literature is a decreased intrinsic desire, which just means they like it less on the inside for themselves. Now, it can take a little bit longer then, for them to learn to eat veggies. Right? But then in the end they have this increased intrinsic desire to eat veggies. So it's this kind of trade off.

Andrea:
You're letting them decide, is that what you're saying?

Jennifer:
Because you're letting them decide. It's kind of like, "Okay, if it's going to go in your body, you're going to be the one that's going to decide, "Am I going to eat it or not?" And it also kind of gives them practice saying, "No, I don't want to try that." Which, you fast-forward to high school where someone says, "Do you want a cigarette?" We want them to have practiced that.

Andrea:
I completely parallel that to parenting discipline and EC pottying all that stuff, for sure. We always say, "Okay, there's no more diaper, so this is where your pee and poop has to go."

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
And there sometimes there's a power struggle and we just lock ourselves in the bathroom with a kid, avert our attention, and just do something else. And then they get to decide when they just... When they want to sit on it and do it.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
But we still contain it.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
So it's like, "Okay, you're sitting at the table. This is the time to eat. So you've got your container."

Jennifer:
Yep.

Andrea:
And then they get to decide how many bites they take, which causes them to be internally motivated to regulate that for themselves for their whole lives, which is exactly what we do with EC. We want our kids to be say... potty training is often very, please mom, "Let's please mom."

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
Let's get the M&M, Whatever.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
And I teach it, when people find me later, I teach that with no stickers, no reward. This is an internal thing. And we need to cultivate the internal desire, by letting you be as empowered as possible and independent. And here's the ropes and here's how you do it, and this is what we're doing now. And then they sync up with us, because we're the guides. We're the parent.

Jennifer:
Yeah. I mean, exactly. And I tried M&Ms with my first kid and guess what? Not only did it not work and go against my own principles, bribing with food, and I was like, "I don't know why I'm doing this." Probably because my mom did it with me.

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
But also it didn't work.

Andrea:
It doesn't work every time.

Jennifer:
It did not work at all.

Andrea:
External pressure and motivation and rebellion. And then entitlement.

Jennifer:
It was so silly.

Andrea:
And its like, "No, this is pee and poop. This is an internal process."

Jennifer:
It ridiculous.

Andrea:
its like, "I'm hungry and going to eat." That's an internal process.

Jennifer:
Yeah, exactly.

Andrea:
Love how many parallels. It's great.

Jennifer:
And I would like to make one note. And this is something that is not in the literature. People get really worked up over like, should I make my child try a bite? Should I not make my child try a bite?" We have searched the literature far and wide. And there's this idea that you should, these one bite rules. There's no research that looks at these kind of one bite rules. There are cultures that have a feel of, "Hey, we all just try foods. We just try them. And that's our family culture and nobody asks anything and nobody's pressuring the kids really." It's just kind of like, "This is what we all do. We all try a bite." And then there's other where they have this, you have to try it rule. And it's just a... It's just a pressure fest and it reduces... it results in battles and it kind of decreases that intrinsic desire and all that stuff. So, I always take a kind of neutral approach to these one bite cultures. How's it going in your family? Is it working or is it not working? If it's not working, obviously it's the wrong strategy for you. If it is working, you may have created a culture where your kids can thrive while doing that.

Andrea:
And it works for you, which is the same with, it's not one size fit all. If it works for you, do it. If it doesn't work for you, we need to find a different solution. And my ex was Marine before I met him. So, he was with the Marines and very... He was a police officer before I met him. And he swore up and down he wasn't like that anymore, but I will tell you that he is. This is how he is. And he absolutely instituted a one bite culture or a finish your plate or you're going to bed culture. And I think between parents too, even if you're married, there's often a squabble about that. Like "No, no, no." Mom wants to protect and make sure that they eat. So, I'm just going to feed them something because I don't want them to starve. And the dad usually is like, "Well, no, they have to eat or they don't get anything and they're going to go to bed. I'm going to punish them." I'm generalizing.

Jennifer:
Yeah, you know what? It's so funny, because that is a stereotype, and at the same time, it is so common, which I'd love to point out is... there are strengths to that, right? Because the mom is very responsive and she is the one who says, "Hey, the kid can decide whether or not to eat. And the kid can decide how much to eat for their body." And then the dad, often, again, stereotyping, is the one who's like, "Hey, we're in charge here. We can say, 'No,' we can say, 'Hey, you can only eat mealtime.' We can say, 'We're in charge of what is served,'" right? And so that balance is often-

Andrea:
They can work together.

Jennifer:
... really, really helpful when you get parents on the same team. And we're actually working on some new stuff that's specifically aimed to speak to parents, to both mom and dads, because so much information is just created for moms. So many courses, so much stuff. I mean, if you are mom, you can find any information exactly how you want to consume it.

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
If you're a dad-

Andrea:
Dads get left out.

Jennifer:
Good luck. Yeah.

Andrea:
You know what's beautiful? Is with infant potty training, often the dads feel like, "Okay, I can't breastfeed. I'm not really the one co-sleeping right next to the baby." All this stuff. And with EC, with pottying the baby, they excel. They're amazing. Because instead of changing a poopy diaper, which what dad wants to do that? He's going to take the baby to the potty and be the hero.

Jennifer:
I love it.

Andrea:
I love... a very small percentage of our audience is men. I'd say about 5%. 10, if I'm meaning generous. But it's generally moms. But what you're saying is that... and with pottying it's the same way... is that we need a team of two people who have different qualities and different skills that can both add to the picture to achieve the same result.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
And then that can be more powerful than just one person trying to do it all themselves.

Jennifer:
Absolutely.

Andrea:
Which is always hard.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
I'm a single mom saying that right now.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
My daughter today was like, "Who's doing the dad stuff?" And I said, "Me."

Jennifer:
Oh my gosh.

Andrea:
And she's like, "Okay." So, I'm doing the mom stuff and the dad stuff and the work stuff and everything. I'm like, "Yeah, but it's just temporary."

Jennifer:
Oh my gosh. That's a lot.

Andrea:
Well, this is good for all... We have a variety of listeners. I know we've got a lot of single moms and a lot of couples and then we've got your dads. So, whoever's listening, definitely teamwork is going to help make this happen better. Now, there was one little note Jen had made about offering foods over and over. What is that about?
Jennifer:
So, one form of pressure that we see sometimes is parents say... And I'm actually wondering, now that I'm thinking about it, are we talking about exposures here? Because that is probably what we want to talk about.

Andrea:
Yeah, I think... so, she was trying to figure out what the themes were and your.

Jennifer:
Oh, that's right.

Andrea:
Especially... and you guys have got to follow... let's do a call out to your... what's your Instagram handle right now?

Jennifer: KidsEatInColor.

Andrea:
EatInColor. KidsEatInColor.

Jennifer:
KidsEatInColor. Yep.

Andrea:
KidsEatInColor. I thought so. You just never know. So with that, you guys have to follow this account. It's amazing. The most beautiful pictures, but with things that make sense. I love the array of... it's like a rainbow of food and it's divided up by the bite sizes based on your baby's age. So you know what... and you were talking about choking and about what is a reasonable size for each age? Kind of like how I talk about how long can my baby hold it at each age?

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
I want to see a big picture. What can I expect? So you guys, go over there right now to Instagram and follow her and then let's get back to... I think it was about exposure.

Jennifer:
Yeah. Exposure. For sure.

Andrea:
Yeah.

Jennifer:
So, exposure is really don't give up, don't give up. So many times, so many times we think we feed our baby. Maybe we feed our baby some chicken or chicken puree, depending on how you're weaning your baby. And they spit it out. My son, I gave him pureed kale one time. It was disgusting. And he made the most awful face, but I would've thought, "Oh, hey, he doesn't like it. Let's move on to a different food." Instead you want to have the mindset of, "They didn't try it this time. We'll try it again next time family has kale." Okay. They don't like it this time. We're going to keep trying, because even a child who's not picky is going to require maybe eight tastes. And to get eight tastes, maybe it's going to have to be on the table 20 times.

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
I mean, my selective eater took three and a half years before he ate a tomato. Just, my second kid was very selective. So, I haven't won the kids feeding lottery.

Andrea:
Yeah. Do you put it on their plate? Or do you just put it family style in the middle of the table if they want to take it?

Jennifer:
That's a good question. So when they were little, I would put a little bit, but I like to recommend micro portions so that we reduce food waste. Don't put a whole pile of tomatoes on their plate. I call them wishful portions that parents have like, "Oh, this is the amount of food that I want you to eat."

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
But if we want to reduce food waste and not be throwing out money and all that stuff, we give them a tiny amount of food. And if they want more, they can ask more.

Andrea:
Micro.

Jennifer:
And that's a social skill. That's a body skill. And that also is just the right way to not waste food.

Andrea:
Oh, because that drives me crazy. I'm so... I love to conserve it. I mean, I'm a gatherer, I'm a woman. I like to make sure we have everything we need and if there's waste, that's a massive alarm for me. I can't handle it.

Jennifer:
Yeah. So, we really want to focus on those tiny portions. If your child doesn't like peas, and you want them to be exposed to it in a more close way, put one pea on their plate.

Andrea:
I love it.

Jennifer:
That's fine.

Andrea:
And try it over and over and over again. Some of my kids, my three year old loves salad. It's the weirdest thing. She loves spinach. And I'm like, "Okay."

Jennifer:
I love it.

Andrea:
Because I would let her sit in my lap and pick food off my plate. I wonder if that's a no-no? Is that okay?

Jennifer:
Oh no that's awesome. You know what? So many kids try foods that way. But I think about your four year old. He might find it stressful to have that pea on his plate. But if you give him a toothpick or something to interact with it, he can become more familiar with it. Maybe he'll push it. Maybe he'll push it with his fingers. And you can play little games at the table, not disruptive, but like, "Let's count our peas together."

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
I mean, that's a skill. You can also do little math problems with peas. You can balance them on your fork. There's all these things that you can do to help a more extreme picky eater, like your four year old... I don't want to use the word extreme, but more seriously picky.

Andrea:
Yeah.

Jennifer:
Anything that we can do to help them interact with the food in the context of exposure and continued exposure. And I'm not making you a special hot dog. The hot dog is on the table with the chili and the peas and the cornbread and whatever it is. The more we can do this sort of, "Hey, we're living the veggie exposure lifestyle and we're encouraging the kids to interact with those foods in a more tactile way," or smelling or, touching. That's what's going to help him get familiar and realize, "Oh yeah, not all peas feel the same, but now I have a wider understanding of how peas might feel in my hand." And then maybe I have a wider variety of how they might smell, and then eventually how they might feel in my mouth.

Andrea:
I love it.

Jennifer:
And so we give kids this wider perspective.

Andrea:
Right, as an exposure technique. So, I know I keep saying this, I'm not making this up. But we do the same thing with the potty. Even if somebody can't do EC and they're really busy, like you're saying you had your kids in daycare full-time. I would recommend that person, from birth, if they can, just offer the potty every morning when that child wakes up. Then when potty training happens, it's not sprung on them like, "Oh, here's this new thing and you have to do it." Instead, it's a slow, gradual exposure technique. "This is what it's like to sit on the potty," every day at the same time.

Jennifer:
I love it.

Andrea:
Eventually, they're curious and they'll release and let it go and start to sync up with that. But it's offered and consistently. I love it. And then, so yeah, we've talked about taking the power struggles out of food, helping the child eat better over time, and developing healthier relationship with food. We've talked a lot about that. And you're an advocate for real whole foods. And I've seen that in your photos. Beautiful photography. You guys, I'm not kidding. I'm a very visual person. So I'm just in love with your account. The relationship with food. So healthy relationship with food as in, we are not creating bulimics and anorexics and people who eat when they're sad. I feel like every time my three year old would cry, my husband or my oldest would give her some food.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
I'm like, "No, that's going to create an emotional eater. This is not the answer." Give her a teddy bear instead."

Jennifer:
Right. I always try to balance the fact that we're real people in a real world, with some practices that have been shown to be helpful over time, that are called these best practices. But these best practices never really understand our reality. And so, there's this, what I like to call my best. It's not like, "Oh, I'm doing my best," but no, "What's my best? What does my best look like?" And we can kind of say, "Okay, we hear this ideal of real, whole food." But for example, right now my husband has two jobs and I have... this is a really busy time for me. And our kids are in school, but then they're ending early, and things are very busy. We are definitely processed foods and that's actually best for our family right now.

And that is... and so, I always like to present the context of how do we think about food? Are we thinking of it in terms of, this is good food and bad food? Or processed food and whole food? Or this food is good for you and bad for you? Instead of having this dichotomy of good/bad, instead, we can really look at the rainbow of experiences here. We can say, "Hey, there's times when I just want to eat all this fresh stuff and I want to make it from scratch and I want to live this life." And then there's other times where you know what? The processed food and the frozen pizza, that's actually good for me right now." And we can find when we give ourselves that option of having... When we give ourselves options, suddenly we have a greater depth of empathy and we also have a greater reserve to give ourselves compassion and space to do best for us during tough times.

Additionally, we can give that to other people, because I feel like in the mom world there's a lot of pressure and there's a lot of judgment and there's, "Oh, how did you potty train your baby? And how did you?" And right now the thing is weaning. "Oh, how did you wean your baby? You did baby-led weaning? You did purees?"" Oh my gosh. And people are like, oh my gosh, it's like, "Oh, breastfeeding and formula?" You name it. It is crazy. And instead, if we could say, "Look, there's a whole rainbow of options there." And when we give ourselves set rainbow of options, we're not developing disordered eating and this moral attachment with food. I just took somebody out for lunch today and we had pizza and that's the end of the story. We had pizza. I came back to work. And tonight, I read a feed, my family whatever I think of for dinner. But we don't have to create these stories that go beyond that. Or we often talk about...

Andrea:
Yeah.

Jennifer:
How do we talk about foods with kids? How do we teach them what's nutritious? Well, we have this great vocabulary for foods. And it's just like, what is the name of the food? "This is broccoli. This is a cookie." And the way that we teach kids and we prevent this sort of disordered perspective around food, is to be in charge of what's served in our house. Say, "These are our food values. This is what our family eats. This is how I want you to learn to eat over time." And that will have a lot more impact than saying, "Oh, this is good for you. And this is bad for you. And this is healthy and this is unhealthy."

Andrea:
I love it. I love it so much. And I also have... My kids have always cooked. And it makes it harder for me, it takes longer for them to help me cook. But when they do that, then everybody in the family says, "Thank you so much Branson for cooking the dinner tonight with Mommy." And then he feels proud. And then he is actually more likely to eat it because he's got ownership over it.

Jennifer:
So true.

Andrea:
And then I know that my biggest thing was I didn't learn how to cook until my first child came along 11 years ago. A woman came over, showed me how to latch my baby onto my breast, pulled his chin right down, I about screamed. And it was like, she came in and cleaned up house. And she said, "Here's how to make a chicken stock. And then here's how to make chicken and dumplings." And I was like, "Whoa."
Jennifer: Wow.

Andrea:
I just had a massive gift here from this really experienced mom of five of all the things. And it was all around feeding. It was nursing, it was cooking, and everything. That was my first chicken stock and my first roasted chicken, even. And she's like, "I want you to watch me do this and then teach you how to cook." I feel like another gift I can give my children and anybody listening, a lot of us are a lot alike, is how do you cook for yourself? How do you prepare meals for yourself from an early age, so that you can intimately get to know what goes into cooking and how much effort is put into it? And what are the ingredients? And how do we make things taste better through spices and sugars and salts and other things?

I think it's this whole beautiful world that my mom, she was doing her best, but she did not feed us very well. So, I try to find a balance between that and then we eat out a lot more now that I'm divorced. We use paper plates since the pandemic. I'm just like, I literally... this is my coping mechanism right now.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
And when we eat out, we go to a really nice restaurant that has really good farm to table food and they love it. I try really hard to make a balance of it, but I just want anybody listening, just have grace for yourself.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
What can you do? And then even if you're making something simple, how can you involve your kid? I don't know if you advocate that too, but I think cooking with our children is super fun and a good learning experience about what is a whole food? What does real food look like? What does it taste like?

Jennifer:
I do. I do advocate for that, if you have the capacity.

Andrea:
Capacity.
Yes.

Jennifer:
So, as someone who, I had the two kids, I had the job, my husband was in grad school full-time. I also had postpartum depression.

Andrea:
Oh, me too.

Jennifer:
I could not... I could not have my... I did have my kids in the kitchen. They were messing around. They'd be tearing stuff and making a mess and all those things.

Andrea:
Right.

Jennifer:
But in terms of baking with the kids, oh my gosh. I just could not handle that executive load of managing the kids. So I always like to give parents permission, like yes, getting your kids in the kitchen cooking with you is such a high bang for your buck activity. I do it probably 75% less than I thought I would-

Andrea:
Yeah.

Jennifer:
... before I had kids, because I'm totally overwhelmed right now. We have a lot going on. We are developing really cool, amazing things. And when I get home, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And one of my kids has lost all interest in being in the kitchen. So, he just doesn't even want to be there doing things unless it involves a very sharp knife. Then he's there. He's 100% focused. He's there for the danger.

Andrea:
I have to agree. So, I had postpartum depression for two kids, undiagnosed. So, I totally... That was not my season for cooking with my children at all. And then the next couple of kids were really interested. And their interest wanes and then it reinvigorates.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
And then when they're interested and Branson's like, "I am cooking breakfast, Mom." And then him and Twyla are up there standing together on their different stools and they're both doing some part of the process, it is a huge amount of executive load. I know what you mean.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
And it's like, "Okay, I know that this is only going to happen once or twice a week. I can handle this." But I get you. It's so hard. It's so hard. If all five of them wanted to cook every day, every meal, I would not... I would just leave the kitchen and just let them do it, because that

Jennifer:
Yeah. For sure. "Let me know if it something catches on fire."

Andrea:
Right? Yeah. And we've been over that. I smell propane and we all know what that smells like now.

Jennifer:
Oh, yeah. We've... I mean, yeah, that's the thing. If you're going to have your kids in the kitchen, teach them about fire, teach them about the fire extinguisher-

Andrea:
Age appropriate jobs.

Jennifer:
... give them the safety skills that they need.

Andrea:
Oh man, I have these vinyl knives, so the little kids can and cut carrots and potatoes and other things. And I love having everybody chopping up stuff for soup, because they don't want to eat soup unless they're also chopping it. So, there are a lot of things there, but I agree with what you're saying. So, we don't want to overload any of you listening, but definitely, if it's an option and you might enjoy it or the kid insists, the kid is insisting-

Jennifer:
Or... yeah. You can give them... Here's what I found. If you can give them a tool that is just a little bit more than they are capable of, but still safe enough, so you can be cooking, but have the kid there trying to figure out how to use something, that can keep them busy while you're cooking.

Andrea:
They're occupied.

Jennifer:
Which can also be a huge thing. And my kids learned how to use a peeler by the time they were two, because I let them use it. Now, at first, you're there, you're showing them always away from your body, right? Very close supervision. But then, soon enough they could do it safely all by themselves. And that sort of danger and developmental skill that can keep them engaged in the learning and kitchen process and keeps them busy while you're cooking.

Andrea:
Out of your hair. We like that. I'm always like, "Let's do as much stuff as possible to get our kids to play independently, to do things independently, to potty independently," all of that. Because it takes the pressure off of us having to be their primary everything.

Jennifer:
Yes, completely agree.

Andrea:
I have so many kids. Like, "Here, you have friends now. Play with them."

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
"I'm not your playmate. They are."

Jennifer:
Right. "Come to me when you need a snuggle."

Andrea:
Right. Right. I'll be the love giver and I will provide your food.

Jennifer:
Right.

Andrea:
Absolutely. Okay, so tell me about your picky eater courses, your meal plans, all the things. Your online community. You guys, Jennifer is a huge resource for so many things. And I also want to know why color? Why are we eating in color?

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
So, two questions in one.

Jennifer:
You know what? Different colors do different things in your body. If we could teach that to kids, we give them the gift of health, the gift of nutrition knowledge with this basic idea. Red foods can help your heart. Orange foods can help you see in the dark. These little age appropriate messages that can interest them in the idea that, "Hey, all these different colors, they all help me be me." And I just love that idea. And the more that we can help our kids get a variety of foods, the better. The better for everybody.

Andrea:
Awesome. I was just wondering, what is the color thing? Okay, now I get it.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
I mean, your photography's beautiful. Is that it? But no, it's more of-
Jennifer: Yeah. No, it's more than that. It's the idea that every color is literally based on a different chemical composition. That's where those colors come from and they do things in our body. So whether it's brown, or white, or dark purple, all those things are different. And the more variety we get, the better,

Andrea:
I love that. I love that so much.

Jennifer:
Yeah.

Andrea:
Right. Now let's talk about the courses and the online community meal plans, all that stuff.

Jennifer:
Yeah. So, if you have a picky eater and you're thinking, "Ah, this is complicated. And I don't know where this is going," we do have a course specifically for picky eaters and even extreme picky eaters, the whole gamut from, "Hey, I will only eat hot dogs, or I'll only eat five foods," to less extreme forms of that. That's called Better Bites. And that's a course. And then we also have a couple meal plans for families and a couple recipe books. So if you're thinking, "Man, I am totally overwhelmed with feeding my family," which is where I was two years ago, because I was trying to quit my day job to do this full-time, and my husband was finished his PhD and he had two jobs, and the kids, and all that stuff. And I thought, "I can't think about meal planning at all."

And so I made this thing that ended up being called Real Easy Weekdays, and it's really designed to help take some of the brain work out of feeding your family. And so, if you're really finding yourself in a position where you're like, "I just need some help to figure out how to feed my family with a little less brain work." That's that. And then also if you're really on a tight budget, we have an amazing resource for families that's called Affordable Flavors, helping you feed your family three meals, two snacks a day, on a budget of $500 or less for a family of four.

Andrea:
Wow.

Jennifer:
And that, if you need that, that's available free if you need it. It's also choose your own price. So, I just always like to mention that, because sometimes we want to feed our families variety and we want to get through the month, but the budget just makes it really, really tricky.

Andrea:
Oh, my budget is out of this world. Well, it's gotten better since now I'm the only person in charge of it, but yeah, it got a little out of hand for a while there. Okay, so these are awesome. Affordable Flavors is the free one, or pay what you can. Better Bites course for picky eaters on all different levels of pickiness, and then Easy Weekdays, was it? For meal planning?

Jennifer:
Real Easy Weekdays. Yeah.

Andrea:
Real Easy Weekdays.

Jennifer:
And then we have a snack guide, and we have all sorts of recipe resources. We also have cool things coming in the new year. So I can't-

Andrea:
You can't tell us. It's a secret.

Jennifer:
... describe them all the way, but it is coming by the time you hear for this.

Andrea:
We should look for it. We should follow you. We should do all the things.

Jennifer:
Yeah, you should look for exciting things coming, specifically around helping parents be on the same page together. And having fun learning, and kind of taking some of these issues where we have these food battles and we want to get on the same page to help end these food battles in a way that actually works. And so, we have new things coming.

Andrea:
So, we'll look for that. We'll look for that in 2022. And then where can they find all of these courses and stuff? You have a website?

Jennifer:
Kidseatincolor.com. That's the one.

Andrea:
Kidseatincolor.com.

Jennifer:
Yep.

Andrea:
All the things are there. I can't wait. I'm also going to come and check it and definitely check out that course, because yeah, I'm pretty good at the meal planning thing. I've got it down. Well, I think I am, but I don't feel like I really have mastered that.

Jennifer:
I think you're doing okay.

Andrea:
I'm doing okay. What we're doing works for us. I have a list of 30 meals that we love. And I write it out on a calendar every month, I just plop things in. I put than two eat outs a week. I incorporate when we have an event or something. I think I'm doing all right. It's pretty good.

Jennifer:
That sounds great.

Andrea:
I feel like I'm a constant learner. My mom was not a good model for all these things. I don't think a lot of ours were. She grew up in the Velveeta age. So, and she would always burn the chicken. So, I mean, I think I have a lot to learn. So, I'm going to come follow you on all those things. And then you've got Facebook as well, right? Instagram and Facebook?

Jennifer:
Pinterest and TikTok.

Andrea:
And TikTok?

Jennifer:
Wherever you go, wherever you like to be.

Andrea:
You're everywhere.

Jennifer:
We're everywhere.

Andrea:
Great, I'm so glad.

Jennifer:
Me and the team.

Andrea:
Yay. Well, Jennifer, thank you so much for being on this show. I think everybody will... I mean, we're all applauding you in the background. You just solved so many things for me personally, and I think a lot of our listeners, as well. And for as long... this will be up forever. So, people are going to have a resource in you. So, thank you.

Jennifer:
Well, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Again, you can check out the show notes for today's show over at godiaperfree.com/175. Leave a comment, let us know what the biggest takeaway is you had from today. Anything you're going to implement in your own home. We can't wait to hear from you there. Comments, questions, whatever, leave them over there at the show notes on our blog, and we'll see you next time.